Boss Your Business - The Podcast

[00:00:00] Yvonne Heimann: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Boss Your Business. And today, today I'm bringing you an old friend of mine, Dustin. How long do we know each other back from the Google plus days? Isn't it?

[00:00:12] Dustin Stout: Probably since 2011, 2012?

[00:00:16] Yvonne Heimann: Yeah, it's like we came up, we came across, yeah, Google plus days. That's somehow back in the day, how we initially connected. So,

[00:00:23] Dustin Stout: I mean, I'll always remember it was 2011 when Google plus launched and that's where I started to meet all my online friends. Yeah. Whenever somebody asks how long have we known each other? I just say, yeah, 2011,

[00:00:37] Yvonne Heimann: 2011 Google plus days. So for everybody that's new around and does not know, Dustin, Dustin, you are an entrepreneur, AI enthusiast, founder of Magai.

[00:00:47] Am I actually, I always say it Magai. Is it Magai or is it Magai?

[00:00:51] Dustin Stout: Magai. Like Magic.

[00:00:53] Yvonne Heimann: Magai. Oh, I like that one.

[00:00:55] Dustin Stout: Magic AI. Magai.

[00:00:58] Yvonne Heimann: And if you've been around on my YouTube channel [00:01:00] on Instagram, you have heard about, you started blogging yet back in, in 2011, have since built a successful career as a full time digital marketing consultant speaker, and you have created numerous of products, which we're going to talk about that help digital creators accomplish more, and your most recent product is Magai and

[00:01:23] thanks, by the way, for, how do they call that he, so, guys, what I'm trying to say here is, Dustin actually gave me how to say it in his submission, so, welcome to Yvi not having had a second coffee, this is going to be an interesting show today. But yeah, I wanted to have you on because I have been watching you back in the day we were chatting.

[00:01:52] That's creepy. Of course everybody knows.

[00:01:56] Dustin Stout: Just kidding. You can watch me whenever you want, Yvi.

[00:01:59] Yvonne Heimann: Every, [00:02:00] everybody knows I do stalk people in a good way. In a good way. Not in a creepy way. If it gets creepy, I'm out. But yeah, it's like back in the day I knew you as, as the marketing guy. You did, you did some supporting at social media marketing world, supporting other speakers. Then I also saw you speak and then suddenly, Dustin pops up with the first WordPress plugin actually. I was the first product that I had seen. And now most recently following your public journey of building Magai.

[00:02:48] And I always like to ask the first question to be, how did you get here? Because there's usually stories that I've [00:03:00] never heard.

[00:03:03] Dustin Stout: Man, I mean, we, we can cover a lot. I think like many entrepreneurs today, at least many of us digital entrepreneurs. The journey has been very weird. And, and not always intentional, you know, it's like you, most of us are explorers. Most of us are curious to no end. And I think a lot of just how technology has evolved and how the online world, how web has evolved. Has just kind of guided us and our curiosity has taken us to places that we never really thought we'd go. For example, I graduated from high school, moved out to California. I was born raised in small town, Pennsylvania. I moved to California to pursue acting and yeah, so I went to acting school for two years of prestigious acting conservatory known as the American Academy of Dramatic [00:04:00] Arts.

[00:04:00] Thank you very much. But I found out very quickly that in, in Hollywood. Celebrities get to act and actors get to wait tables. And I really didn't like waiting tables very much. So, I ended up long story short, becoming an entrepreneur. I wanted control over my time, control over my destiny. And I started as an entrepreneur because I ended up teaching myself web design and teaching myself social media marketing.

[00:04:30] I just happened to be a director at a nonprofit, a youth director at a nonprofit, and I had to reach a target audience and that target audience at the time, 2008, 2009. They were on social media, they were on specifically Facebook.

[00:04:45] Yvonne Heimann: Yeah.

[00:04:45] Dustin Stout: And so I started learning about how to reach my audience and that led to me wanting to blog about what I was learning because I, they say the best way to learn something is to teach it to others, right?

[00:04:56] We retain the knowledge better that way. So I started [00:05:00] blogging about social media. And I didn't want my blog to look ugly because, as a graphic designer, occasionally, as well, I wanted it to look good and people to enjoy the experience. So I taught myself web design, taught myself social media marketing.

[00:05:13] And before long, people were contacting me via my blog and saying, Hey, can we hire you to do social media for us? Or, Hey, can we hire you to design our website and our blog? And so. That turned into a full time consulting gig in about 2014 is when I went full time. At that time, it was also around the time when I got together with a couple friends and we had this idea for a WordPress plugin.

[00:05:36] And so I kind of went through this phase of, I love consulting work, because I kind of control my time and I love people. I'm an extrovert. Anybody who knows me knows that about me. I love people, love talking to people. I need that interaction with people, but I'm also a perfectionist.

[00:05:55] So consulting work, historically, hard to [00:06:00] scale, right? Because it's hard to go beyond yourself and then hire people who have your level of skill that you're willing to share, you know, the workload with. So as a perfectionist, I found it very hard to scale a consulting business because I can't delegate. I'm just too hands on and I want to spend an hour and a half thinking about how round should the button corners be, right?

[00:06:20] So I am not good.

[00:06:21] Yvonne Heimann: And I'm laughing here because I know that that has been such a journey of learning for me. To not be that much a perfectionist because I'm the only one who sees it and we know that, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody else cares. Nobody else cares about it. Nobody else sees it.

[00:06:40] Dustin Stout: But I'll see it and I have to fix it. So, when I got together with a couple of friends who had an idea for WordPress plug in, something sort of clicked in my brain. It was like, this is a better fit for me. You know, I want to build a business. I want to build products that people love. I want to help people online, do more, accomplish [00:07:00] more and be their own boss.

[00:07:03] But digital products gave me that, that sort of balance of, I can put my perfectionism to work on one thing and I can focus intimately. And, as long as I need to on that one thing and help many people with that one thing. And so it was a much better fit than consulting for me.

[00:07:21] What, so while, while I built that first business with my two partners, I continued to take on consulting work until the business got to the point where I didn't need to anymore. And so I slowly, you know, offloaded my clients and focused on that one thing. Now, unfortunately that partnership didn't work out. There were some challenges in that business, and the partners and I grew apart.

[00:07:44] And so I had to leave that business in 2020 and look for my next venture. And, that led me down. Oh, we can spend an hour on this, this part of it, but I'll, I'll save you the drama and the tears. I had two ideas for [00:08:00] products that I wanted to build, had to raise some capital in order to get them built because I, myself, I'm not a developer.

[00:08:05] I know enough development to, be dangerous. But, when it comes to building highly complex functional applications, I need to outsource that development. And so I raised some capital, had these great ideas that in my head were gonna, you know, change the world, but because the capital that I raised was not quite enough to get that world breaking, game changing product made, I had to slim it down and slim it down and slim it down to like the most minimal viable product that I could possibly afford to get built.

[00:08:38] Unfortunately, those products never gained enough traction. They were never attractive enough to my target audience to switch from the tools that they were already using. And those two products were an absolute failure. I found myself at a point where I was not sure if I'm, I was going to be able to pay my mortgage.

[00:08:57] I've got a family to take care of. This [00:09:00] was two years of just grinding, trying to, trying to stretch out the runway from exiting my last company and surviving off of that. And all of a sudden, all the money's gone. All the capital I raised is gone. Our savings are gone. I don't know how I'm going to survive the next few months financially, and I was at a place where I just experienced failure after failure after failure after bloody failure and it got so, I mean, I was in the darkest place of my life and, just didn't want to even go on anymore.

[00:09:33] And that's when chat GPT hit the scene. I've been working with AI for a long time. And you have as well, like all of us in the marketing space, we've been doing the AI stuff for like years now.

[00:09:46] Yvonne Heimann: It's, it's been interesting. I was actually also on a group discussion yesterday, yesterday evening at my business club, downtown talking about AI.

[00:09:56] And it's been interesting how the [00:10:00] general population thinks AI is a new thing. And I'm like, you've got, you guys have been using AI without even knowing it. Customers support chats, searches, anything. It's just becoming this broadly available to us, but you've been using it.

[00:10:21] Dustin Stout: Right? Yeah, we've all been using it. And as marketers in particular, we've been hyper aware of using it because there are tools out there that have been helping us with copywriting for the last few years. But when chat GPT came out, something was different. It was, it was instantly, I understood that this was going to change the entire world, and I instantly saw that I, I needed to figure out how to use this for myself to get myself out of this pit of despair that I was in.

[00:10:51] And, and, you know, try and resurrect either my consulting business or find my next product. But as soon as I started using chat GPT pretty [00:11:00] prolifically at that. I realized instantly the number one, it was going to change the world. Everybody's going to use this technology and there's a whole lot of things.

[00:11:08] Oh, look at those balloons. I didn't know. I didn't know I did that. I knew that there were a lot of flaws in how it was built for, for someone who's a business owner, who is a prolific content creator. I instantly saw the gaps that were the things that were missing from chat GPT that creators like me needed in order to work this technology into our everyday workflows and businesses.

[00:11:32] So the idea for Magai started to spin in my head and it was really just like, I need to make a better version of chat GPT. That's really what it was. I need to make a better interface for chat GPT and, long story short, it became much more than that. And, it turns out a lot of people had the same feelings that I did about what chat GPT was missing.

[00:11:53] And, here we are, I think it's eight months later, released in April. Yeah, I [00:12:00] released first, public release was in April. I think I had some beta testers about a month before that, but yeah, it's only been out since April and now here we are about the, close to 2000 users and, a lot of feature updates since then.

[00:12:15] And, yeah, the, the entire, the entire industry of AI has shifted at least two or three times since, since then. And, keeping up has been, quite an adventure.

[00:12:26] Yvonne Heimann: Oh God, yes. So for everybody listening or watching, Magai is an interface where I can literally use how many different AIs do we have now between text AIs and visual AIs? It's, it's insane.

[00:12:45] Dustin Stout: As of last week, there are eight chat bot models, and there are, as of yesterday, for, image models.

[00:12:55] Yvonne Heimann: So for, for all of you models in total, for all of you that are [00:13:00] just starting to use AI, first of all, there's two different main AIs. That, that are being developed right now that are being used a lot right now.

[00:13:08] One of them is the text based one, meaning it's reading text. It's analyzing text. It's giving you text back. The other one is generating graphics, generating visuals based on your input. And Magai, when you look at it, you say you create a new chat and then you choose, do you want to use chat GPT 3. 504. Do you want to use Claude?

[00:13:33] Which by the way, has become my main AI right now to use. But we also have in Magai available personas right away to go. Yes. Chat GPT finally caught up on that one too, and is starting to offer that. But I'm like, for me, why Magai and jumping on early was a no brainer is because I have all of them available to me.

[00:13:59] And it's like [00:14:00] watching you first of all, publicly share your endeavor in growing this and building this and openly and vulnerably sharing also the struggles you had with integrating and, When chat GPT screw stuff up, it's screwed up in your tool too. So it's like having, having that access and being able to see all the things that are happening on top of it, just being a no brainer.

[00:14:30] Why the hell would I pay for one tool when I can have them all? And have the, the ability to, to input. I'm like, at some days when, when I was digging deep, poor Dustin had like, I don't know how many freaking chat messages every single day in his inbox. Because I'm like, dude, that, that, but that button is getting covered up in that view.

[00:14:55] And I would like to move this. And can we do this? And can we do that? I can't [00:15:00] do that with another AI.

[00:15:03] Dustin Stout: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just try reaching out to chat GPT support and see how you, how you. I, I was paying, I mean, I think at this point I'm paying them something like 10 grand a month for usage. And they still take like five days to get back to my support tickets.

[00:15:23] Yvonne Heimann: Oh my God. So how has this journey been for you to build that SaaS? It's what, what has happened behind the scenes from that moment where you were at your darkest to now. I know you've tested running some lifetime deals at some point, which people like us are usually really, really careful about because they can bite you in the ass royally.

[00:15:55] So how, how has that journey been those last eight months [00:16:00] building out Magai?

[00:16:02] Dustin Stout: Well, I think the, the huge lesson that I learned from my two failed products previously was number one. Like I, I don't want to, I don't want to do the normal, like hype launch thing. What's a better way to say that I, I wanted to ease into the business.

[00:16:28] And I wanted to go into it with caution because obviously I. You know, I, I burned myself out trying to get the two previous products off the ground. I, I did all of the launch things. I made it all these attractive marketing, lead magnets and campaigns. And I've spent money on ads and I had these launch deals and I made these big extravagant.

[00:16:52] Like.. I had gold coins made. Oh my God. Yes. I remember those. [00:17:00] Like to, to just to make it more like spectacular. I, you know, I want it to be a spectacular launch and, and have all these goodies. And then when it failed miserably, it's almost like, you know, the, the bigger they are, the harder they fall, right? Like the, the bigger you launch.

[00:17:17] The harder it hits when it's not a success. So, I knew that I didn't want to do that again. I wanted to approach it more conservatively. My, my confidence had taken a huge hit over this last two years. Just seeing everything I do fail. So I really wanted to come into it with humility and say, I have these ideas.

[00:17:40] Maybe they're good. I think they're good. My wife tells me they're good, but we're a little biased so, I really just wanted to share it as a journey. I didn't want to do a big launch event I didn't want to do big spectacular, you, know, bonuses and stuff for people who signed up early. I literally just [00:18:00] my launch was this I tweeted, here's the public signup link finally.

[00:18:05] And that was it. Now all along the way, what I was engaging with was, sort of a popular approach to building a startup. And it's called the, the build in public movement where really as a startup founder, you're just sharing what you're building. You're just like transparently saying, here's what I'm working on.

[00:18:26] Here's why I'm doing it. And maybe sharing, you know, some of the behind the scenes, how the sausage is made kind of stuff. And that's really all the marketing I've been doing for the last 8 months. Now, I did experiment with a lifetime deal. There was a friend of mine named Charlie Patel who runs a company called Rocket Hub.

[00:18:44] Now, like you said, I'm a little bit skeptical about lifetime deals because I've seen them crush fellow entrepreneurs who did them with companies like AppSumo and it was the worst decision they could ever make for their business.

[00:18:57] Yvonne Heimann: Especially with something [00:19:00] like you, where every user is using resources you have to pay for. So if you have a bunch of lifetime deals, which pay once, you still have to pay for the resources they are using.

[00:19:15] Dustin Stout: Right. Yeah. So at some point they become a liability.

[00:19:19] Yvonne Heimann: Exactly. By math, it's like, cool. You get a good cash injection to do whatever you want to do. But then you have to pay for them moving forward.

[00:19:29] Dustin Stout: Right. Yeah. So I went into that with a lot of caution and Charlie, if I could say anything about Charlie, he's one of the most thoughtful entrepreneurs I've ever met. Everybody should have Charlie or at least a Charlie Patel in their life, someone like him, but he's extremely insightful. He's obviously built several businesses that have been highly successful and rocket hub,

[00:19:52] the way that they approach their lifetime deals is they vet every app that they add to their system. Every launch [00:20:00] they do. They vet the founders. They vet the product. They even help with the business plan. He, he's very insightful and coming up with pricing models and helping you to find the right one.

[00:20:12] And they don't run these cheapo $29 lifetime deals. Their lifetime deals are like $99 and above.

[00:20:19] Yvonne Heimann: Yeah.

[00:20:20] Dustin Stout: So they're a little bit more high end. And he really worked with me on it. He had to, he had to do some convincing to get me to be willing even to do a lifetime deal. So, you know, the, a lot of the parameters that we put around it were, you know, to, to make sure that

[00:20:35] it would be worth it for me and it would be worth it for the audience that, that would be buying a lifetime deal. So we did, we did it a two week timeline and it was like half the amount of time of all his typical lifetime deals because I was just super cautious. But it did end up working fairly well.

[00:20:51] I think we re we sold over a hundred thousand dollars worth of product in that two weeks. And, well, another [00:21:00] thing I love about rocket hub, I'll say one more great thing is Charlie is a founder's founder and unlike these other lifetime deal sites, who take 70 to 80 percent of the revenue. Most people don't know that, Charlie acts like a true partner.

[00:21:18] It's a 50, 50 split. So if you do a lifetime deal with rocket hub, you get 50 percent of that revenue. And it's a real partnership. They pay for all the ads. They pay for all the, they generate all the ad copy. They generate all the assets. And then at the end, they give it all to you. They're like, here's the data that we found.

[00:21:36] Here's the ads we run. Here's what was successful. Here's all the copies, all the images, you have them. They're yours. So really great experience with that. I probably won't ever do it again just cause I don't need to. But that's not to say that, you know, I wasn't extremely happy with the results. So that was like the one big marketing thing I did.

[00:21:57] And I think it did really help to generate some buzz, some [00:22:00] word of mouth. It onboarded some users pretty quickly. And those users became advocates because they were really happy with what they got. And, the only really other marketing thing I did is, I implemented an affiliate program

[00:22:13] and, you know, part of my mission, I think, in creating Magai was, I know that this technology is going to change the world.

[00:22:22] Like, we we've already seen how it's changed the world and I think the people who are out there, teaching others how to use this technology are the most important people right now for this technology to thrive. I mean, you think about when the world had to transition to the web, like there was a huge learning curve, right?

[00:22:39] People had to like, figure out what am I going to use the web for? Is this a fad? Is it going to go away? And then, soon enough, people acclimated maybe three, three to five years. It, it took some time, but then the, the onset of Google, when we switched from like having to have phone books and like actually do physical research and go to a [00:23:00] library and find things.

[00:23:00] Right. Google came along and completely changed the paradigm, but still there was this learning curve, right? We had to like figure out what do we search for. We started the first thing that everybody was searching for just like Charlie bit my finger and, you know, funny videos, but like, eventually we learned, oh, I can search for local restaurants.

[00:23:19] I can search for, a website and answer that answers my, this troubleshooting problem that I have. I can type in a math problem into Google search and get an answer. So, we went through this learning curve as a culture, but we didn't really have the prolific amount of teachers that we have now. And I think the only way that this technology is really going to just blitz the marketplace and shorten that curve is with creators who are willing to teach others how to use it.

[00:23:52] They're willing to like go in there, get their hands dirty, figure it out for everyone else and teach everyone how to use it. Now there are [00:24:00] thousands of creators out there teaching people how to use chat GPT. But I know as a creator myself, it is very hard to make a living by just giving stuff away for free and teaching people for free.

[00:24:13] And that's what you want to do as a creator because you have a good heart. So I wanted to, as, as a founder and as a profitable business, I wanted to find a way to pay these creators for sharing good information and teaching people how to use this technology. Chat GPT is never going to give anyone a dollar for creating a video of how to use chat GPT.

[00:24:36] But if somebody goes out there with that same exact principle, how do you use Magai and they refer a bunch of customers over, I want to give them 20 percent of that revenue or the lifetime of those referrals. And that was, that was the one thing that I knew I needed to do.

[00:24:52] And yes, it's a marketing play, but it's also like, this is the best way to get this information out there and to get the education out there, to [00:25:00] pay these creators for the work they're doing and educating the marketplace.

[00:25:04] Yvonne Heimann: And you're not just saying that you are living that. So little story time here. I was speaking in Vegas with a couple other friends of ours and unbeknownst to us, literally unbeknownst to us, it was not planned.

[00:25:19] There was no, we knew our topics where everybody is talking about. And somehow, how many was it? Like three or four of us. All avid Magai users literally mentioned Magai in our talk. And then the, the, the wave started of us texting Dustin and being like, dude, I need a landing page. And within literally like half an hour, 15 minutes, all three of us had a landing page for our talks.

[00:25:54] For being there to send people to, and yes, guys, you're going to get it too. Mine is at [00:26:00] Askyvi.tips/Magai. It will be in the description. Where it's like, you don't just say this. We often enough as content creators, get the cold page job, let's partner up. And in the end, you just want me to fucking jump into your affiliate program without any resources without anything, where the experience with you has been completely different.

[00:26:27] First of all, my audience knows I love me a Saas or a tool that I can converse with, where I can have an impact. Does it mean everything I'm throwing at you is going to be implemented? No. But I'm part of the growth.

[00:26:43] I get to give feedback. I, I get to be part of that. And then also getting that support as a content creator of, Hey, Dustin, I have this idea where literally at a conference right now, everybody is asking. [00:27:00] 15 minutes later, I have a damn landing page with my headshot in it and even savings for you guys. So make sure you check it out through the affiliate link, because you might be saving yourself some money for the first few months.

[00:27:14] It is a relationship and that comes back around to, to great partnership and great affiliate programs where it's not just like you are just a salesperson. I don't want to be just a salesperson. If I'm just a salesperson, I'm going to do that for my own business. So it's been. It's been really refreshing to, to see that impact and that commitment with you as, as well as the other affiliate programs that I work with.

[00:27:44] Because again, if it's just a freaking sales pitch, you just want me to, to go out there and shout the name from the rooftops. It's not going to happen.

[00:27:53] Dustin Stout: Yeah. Resell our product! and then you never hear from them again. Yeah, no, I, [00:28:00] I am a creator and I know that the creators are the future of any emerging technology. They are, they're the ones who make it happen.

[00:28:08] It's not the product creators who make it happen. It's not the marketing team that makes it happen. The, the, when any paradigm is changing, it takes educators, content creators, people who have the, the skill and the desire. To share knowledge, especially knowledge that is new and novel and not everybody understands yet.

[00:28:33] Yvonne Heimann: How does life look nowadays?

[00:28:36] Dustin Stout: Oh, it's still pretty crazy, you know, with API.

[00:28:40] Yvonne Heimann: That's the only way how we function. I don't think we can, we can function without a little bit crazy here and there.

[00:28:48] Dustin Stout: Yeah. So, I also have three, I have three kids. They're all in school right now. And in fact, today's an early out day, which why?

[00:28:59] [00:29:00] But, yeah, could you keep them like all day? That would be great. But yeah, you know, trying to trying to be a dad of three kids and my wife, she is a teacher. So she works. She's gone from like, six o'clock in the morning until, you know, five, five o'clock at night. And so, you know, I have to take the kids to school and then I have to be the one to come go pick them up and, you know, make sure that they're all settled and make sure they're all taken care of, while still trying to get in a full work day, trying to run an entire business.

[00:29:32] So it's, you know, it's, it's a crazy sort of balancing act that you have to try and make, but, and then on top of that, while they are at school, just trying to stay on top of all the emerging changes and all the, the things happening in the world of AI and trying to listen to customers, listen to creators and see, you know, what do you need next and what's not working or what can be better?

[00:29:54] So it's, it's, there's never a dull moment. There's two crises that I [00:30:00] had to solve this morning before this call and before I could even take a shower. So, you know, what's that?

[00:30:08] Yvonne Heimann: Showers are overrated.

[00:30:09] Dustin Stout: They are. Really, they are. You know, who needs a shower? I do, after a day like today. Oof, yeah.

[00:30:21] Yvonne Heimann: I'm more of a bath person after a crazy day.

[00:30:23] For anybody out there that is considering going into a product based business or SaaS, do you have one tip that they potentially should pay attention to or that, that big lesson that you had?

[00:30:41] Dustin Stout: Yeah. I mean, the big lesson is you have to be so obsessed with talking with your target customer and, and be willing to throw every one of your ideas away if it doesn't fit the customer's needs.

[00:30:58] One of the reasons [00:31:00] that I think the first two products failed, I mean, number one, I didn't have enough cash to build the thing that I wanted to build. But on top of that, when I, when I whittled down the minimum viable product to what I could afford to build, it was based on what I thought the customer needed, how I thought it should be.

[00:31:16] Now, to a degree, I am a bit of a Steve Jobs and that, you know, you can't ask people what they need, because they don't often know what they need, but if you talk to them enough, you can intuitively understand what they need, but you can't understand what they need unless you talk to them, unless you really spend the time getting to know them, their workflows, their daily struggles, their problems, their, you know, their goals.

[00:31:43] And if you don't spend the time talking to the customer, you can have all these great ideas in your head, that ultimately fail, because they don't connect to your target audiences' wants and needs. So, the big lesson is talk to your [00:32:00] target audience and be willing to throw out every idea that you have in exchange for the ones that they actually want or need.

[00:32:09] Yvonne Heimann: And with that, oh God, I feel that that's, that's where some, that's where some ego comes in and you need to put your own ego aside.

[00:32:16] Dustin Stout: It does. Especially as creatives, like we, I'm, I'm an artist. I'm a creative. I'm also a bit analytical in my own head. And we get so attached to these ideas. We love our ideas or our babies, right?

[00:32:31] Our products, our businesses, our baby. And we, we want to just drive forth with what we came up with and we can get so blinded by that and completely ignore what our audience is telling us. And, you know, that can be the, a real downfall for a lot of products.

[00:32:53] Yvonne Heimann: It reminds me a little bit of raising a child. Not that I'm a parent. But I often see, [00:33:00] parents having a certain vision for their children, but they do have their own mind and their own personality. And at some point, you either going to drive them away by pushing them the direction you want them to go, or you need to let go of your perception. And let them be.

[00:33:21] Dustin Stout: Absolutely.

[00:33:23] Yvonne Heimann: And with that deep knowledge, guys, I'll send you off. Thanks so much for joining us again, as always, all of Dustin's links, as well as my affiliate link for Magai, with your savings, are in the description. Pop on in the comment section, leave a review, let me know, and let Dustin know what you think about Magai, what you are using it for, and I'll see you in the next episode of Boss Your Business next week. Bye everybody.