Boss Your Business - The Podcast

[00:00:00] Yvonne Heimann: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Boss Your Business. And today I am joined by Doctor Julie. You are an author, speaker, curiosity connoisseur. No tongue twister on that one, guys. And dinner party enthusiast. Oh, we're gonna have to talk food on this one.

[00:00:21] You were born in Saigon, Vietnam and raised in Seattle. Doctor Pham earned her PhD in history at Cambridge University as a Gates Cambridge scholar, and she graduated magna cum laude from UC Berkeley, where she studied history.

[00:00:39] You also earned her real life MBA by running your family's Vietnamese language newspaper during the 2008 to 2010 recession. And she also worked as a journalist, historian, marketer, nonprofit executive, community organizer, and a management consultant. Damn. Talk [00:01:00] about a resume. You're kind of like fingers in everything too.

[00:01:04] Aren't you?

[00:01:04] Julie Pham: There are definitely lots of career pivots as I try to figure out what I wanted to do when I grow up. So

[00:01:10] Yvonne Heimann: Have you figured out what you wanna do when you grow up? Because I don't know if I have.

[00:01:14] Julie Pham: I can say that what I'm doing right now, I really am having a lot of fun.

[00:01:18] So at least as long as I'm having a lot of fun, then I'm gonna stay. I'm gonna stay put for a while.

[00:01:23] Yvonne Heimann: Tell, tell the audience what are you doing right now, before we dive into of how did you actually get here?

[00:01:30] Julie Pham: Okay. So what I'm doing right now is helping people practice curiosity in the world, starting it in the workplace because that is where we spend most of our waking hours. Help people ask questions, listen to understand, tell stories.

[00:01:46] Yvonne Heimann: I love that. So how, how specifically do you do that? Because I love the idea of not what I'm doing right now and just talking at people, but actually diving [00:02:00] into those questions and, and more into deeper questions. So how do you help people get into that mindset of being curious?

[00:02:08] Julie Pham: So first, I just wanna define curiosity a bit because a lot of people talk about curiosity like it's a personality trait.

[00:02:14] You either have it or you don't. And it usually sounds like this, oh, we just need to be more curious, as in I'm curious and you need to be more curious, and you're not curious. And actually, I think that everyone is curious. It's just that we don't always practice it. And so we liken curiosity to meditation.

[00:02:32] It looks really easy, yet it's so difficult to still our minds. And there are times where I don't feel like I wanna practice curiosity, right? I, I feel like I know the answer and they need to listen to me. And so the first step to it is just admitting it.

[00:02:49] So we think of curiosity as a practice as something we do, and it boils down to these 3 elements. The first is self awareness. The second is relationship building, and the third [00:03:00] is clear communication. And so when we take it in those steps like that, those elements like that, then it's just we can appreciate, oh, this is why it can be hard to practice curiosity.

[00:03:11] Yvonne Heimann: And it's like, we're also just humans.

[00:03:13] Right? It's, it's sometimes something just I just need to get something out, and I don't, I don't, I don't care how your day was. And I'm laughing here because as a German coming to the States and still to this day, I have gotten better. But initially, when I moved to the States, when the, the cashier at your grocery store is like, how are you today? And I'm like, you don't care.

[00:03:38] Why are you asking? You don't actually care. So I'm like, we do have days where it's like, okay. I just need to fill my own bucket right now, which means I just wanna share my stuff and not necessarily ask all the questions. Mhmm.

[00:03:53] But it also can become a habit where, especially as a coach or as [00:04:00] a teacher or as an educator in general, where it's like, okay. I've I can see what you are doing. Don't do that. But it doesn't help people. So I love the idea of the self awareness of Yvi, shut up.

[00:04:14] You have a guest and actually ask her a question rather than going in a monologue. So I assume that's kind of like the similar how you work with your clients where it's just, like, realize when you're doing the monologue. And, and how can you shift that?

[00:04:29] Julie Pham: Mhmm. Well, and actually even sometimes the monologue actually, sometimes we need to have the monologue first.

[00:04:35] Right? Because if we don't have the monologue first, then we, we go and we assume that they are picking this and this and this. And with the questions we might be asking them are based actually have, have assumptions behind them. Right? And so that first step of that self awareness is actually just being curious about ourselves.

[00:04:53] What am I feeling right now? What am I and what's that based on? And then the second part, the [00:05:00] relationship building is then, Yvi, how do I be curious about you and ask you questions? And you and then I'm gonna react to what you shared with me, and then I'm gonna share myself, and then you're gonna react to me. And then that back and forth, that mutual curiosity, that's reciprocity.

[00:05:15] We need to have for relationship building. And I point this out because sometimes people think of curiosity as just learning something new. And so have you ever been in those conversations where someone's just asking you all these questions and, and then you don't learn anything about them?

[00:05:33] Yvonne Heimann: Yep.

[00:05:33] Julie Pham: They haven't shared anything themselves.

[00:05:35] They just asked you all these questions. And so I do think, actually, a part of practicing curiosity is the back and forth of that, that relationship building. Mhmm. And, and then the third part, the, the clear communication. This is listening to understand, asking questions when we don't understand, and this last one is key.

[00:05:54] Sharing specific stories and examples, not speaking abstracts. And when we haven't [00:06:00] actually done that first part, the, the self awareness part, then it could be so easy to slip into abstracts because we don't actually know the story yet. So we just say, this is important. This is why we should do it.

[00:06:13] Yvonne Heimann: And that comes the, the last one comes back to, to one of my things where I'm always like, okay.

[00:06:20] How specifically? Because perception is so different. It's like I always use the example of when I say, think of a color red. The chances are the shade of red you are thinking of is different of the shade of red that I'm thinking of. So having that communication, having specific examples, and really asking what specifically do you mean to get the understanding of how the other person is perceiving everything.

[00:06:50] Julie Pham: Mhmm.

[00:06:50] Yvonne Heimann: I love that.

[00:06:51] Julie Pham: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:06:53] Yvonne Heimann: So how, how did all of this come about?

[00:06:59] I'm [00:07:00] like, I love the idea of curiosity and having those conversations and, and asking the questions and sharing. But I'm pretty sure that little Julie didn't start out and saying, I'm out here to make people more curious. So how did she get here?

[00:07:18] Julie Pham: So, Yvi, I gotta tell you, I don't think I was very curious in the beginning. So, so even though I had spent the first part of my career training as an academic and in pursuit of new knowledge and so as an academic, there's a particular kind of curiosity, right, to accumulate knowledge and to disprove other people's knowledge.

[00:07:37] They're right. I'm wrong. Look at my body of research. I'm more rigorous. And so when I was finishing up my, my PhD, I came out.

[00:07:46] Right? And I came back to Seattle to help run my family's Vietnamese newspaper. My parents founded the first privately owned Vietnamese newspaper in the Pacific Northwest, and I started to do a lot of of community service. [00:08:00] This was I was getting my real life MBA, and in this was a lot of volunteering. And, Yvi, I gotta tell you how frustrated I was in the beginning because it was like, why are we spending so much time talking?

[00:08:12] We know what we need to do. Why don't we just get straight to it? What's all of these icebreakers? Right? And I was so frustrated.

[00:08:21] Oh my god.

[00:08:22] Yvonne Heimann: You're, I, I hear, I hear my story. Alright.

[00:08:26] Julie Pham: I was so

[00:08:26] Yvonne Heimann: Oh my god. Yes.

[00:08:28] Julie Pham: So frustrated. And then I realized I wasn't having fun. Other people around me seem to be having fun. And I also watched my the way that my parents did business, especially my father, and I could see that how much relationship building was taking place and that I actually had to slow down because there was a lot of learning that could take place just from the other people there because we're coming from such different backgrounds. Actually, one of the things that I first started to do was, I mean, I started to work at the newspaper during the great recession, and this is the global decline of newspapers [00:09:00] everywhere.

[00:09:00] Yeah. And I started to globalize what is called referred to as ethnic media. So the different organizations that serve the Chinese community, Spanish speaking, Somali, all of these different specific ethnic niche communities were coming from really different backgrounds. We have different expectations of how to treat one another. And, and so that I had to slow down and realize that another way to learn was from actually the people who I was collaborating with.

[00:09:29] And so I would say that that community building helped make me realize, oh, to, to be more curious with the people who I was with. And then fast forward, I was working in the newspaper for a few years, and, and then I moved over to tech. I've worked in the tech industry for 9 years. And then I got my second during while working in tech, and I got my second real life PhD in organizational development. And I actually created this cross [00:10:00] sector collaboration fellowship, bringing together tech, government, and community based organizations.

[00:10:05] Yvonne Heimann: Now that's something to bring together. I'm like, okay.

[00:10:10] Julie Pham: And, and because, you know, it's just, we can there's all these different ways to think about diversity. And I'm actually really fascinated by sector diversity as well because the pack the private sector, the public sector, the nonprofit sector. And in any case, what I saw here because I created this fellowship that ran for 6 months, and I did this 5 different times.

[00:10:32] And in this, people just had to collaborate and create something out of nothing. They had no budget. They had a very short time span. And Yvi, what I saw was some people really struggled, and some people really thrived. And it took me, it took me over a year, 2 cohorts to figure out what was happening because I started to study it.

[00:10:53] And I realized it had to do with curiosity. It had to do with curiosity. The people [00:11:00] who were struggling were those who were really fixated on a certain outcome. And they were like, here's the plan. This is the impact we're gonna have.

[00:11:08] And, you know, when did things go exactly to plan?

[00:11:13] Yvonne Heimann: You're, you're, you're asking the, the unrecovering perfectionist.

[00:11:17] Julie Pham: Right, right. And so they really struggled. And then there were the people who were just, Oh my gosh, look at what we're learning.

[00:11:25] I had no idea. We created something out of nothing, and they were having a lot of fun. And so what we saw was on these teams, if there is a critical mass of people who were so excited about what they were learning, it could uplift the morale of a team. And the inverse was true. There are teams where people were so fixated on a certain outcome, If they had a critical mass, they could bring down the morale.

[00:11:52] Because here's the thing. There are bystanders on the team. Right? There are people who are just waiting to see [00:12:00] where what the energy is on the team. And they could be uplifted or they could be brought down.

[00:12:06] And so that's when I realized so, Yvi, you asked me, how did I get to curiosity? Right? I would say that first part realizing I'm not very curious, learning how to build relationships. Because I really think that's the strength of curiosity is the human connection. And then in this case, seeing that it could also help people, it could help with collaboration.

[00:12:23] It could help with connection. And then, Yvi, I just wanna say, I learned how to ask a question. This I, I determined one question because I would bring to the people who really struggled.

[00:12:37] Yvonne Heimann: Uh-huh.

[00:12:38] Julie Pham: Because I've got to say, in the beginning, I made the mistake of trying to save them.

[00:12:43] The people who were just so checked out, it's like, let me make you happy. How do I make this experience good for you? And they always left no matter what. But by the third cohort, I learned to ask one question. Okay.

[00:12:56] Yvonne Heimann: Now I'm curious because that's, that's [00:13:00] completely aligned with what a lot of coaches and consultants do. Right? It's like, yeah, I've been there. I've done that. I know what your issue is.

[00:13:07] Here's the solution. And people are like, I don't care. So I'm like, oh, okay. Okay. Mhmm.

[00:13:14] Mhmm. What's that question?

[00:13:16] Julie Pham: The question is, do you think you can learn from other people here?

[00:13:23] Yvonne Heimann: Oh.

[00:13:26] Julie Pham: Do you think you can learn from other people here?

[00:13:31] Do you think you can learn from your teammates? And there would be people who are like, no. To be honest, no. Or like, yeah, but it's gonna take me too long, and it's just not gonna be worth my time because this is you're asking me for a lot of time.

[00:13:43] And then I'd say, okay. That's alright. Let's get you off this team. Let's get you out of the program. Because if they don't feel that they can learn from the other people there for whatever reasons.

[00:13:51] Right? They're busy with their life. They're just like, I've already done this. For whatever reasons, that's okay. I don't need to explore that with them.

[00:13:58] I don't need to convince them. They've already [00:14:00] told me that they don't think that they can learn from other people here. And there are other people I can bring into the program who are just, yes. I can. I want to.

[00:14:09] And you know, Yvi, the other thing that was really interesting, because this program had people really different, really junior in their career, and really senior in their career. And it was actually typically the people who are more junior in their career who did not feel that they could learn from other people there.

[00:14:26] Yvonne Heimann: Oh. Because they haven't ended up on their nose yet, you realize you can learn from everybody.

[00:14:33] Julie Pham: And the people who were senior, they were in the program because they were just, I don't wanna be the boss.

[00:14:40] I don't wanna make decisions. I'm the boss all the time. I don't wanna be the boss here. I just wanna learn. I just wanna be a student like everyone else.

[00:14:50] And they had a lot of fun because they felt like they also had the freedom to explore, which in their daytime jobs, it could be harder, right, because it's just their people are looking to them to make quick [00:15:00] decisions.

[00:15:00] Yvonne Heimann: Yep.

[00:15:00] Julie Pham: And so it was so that question really helped it, it really helped me understand. So the the experience of, of helping people practice curiosity is helping them create this environment where people feel they can learn from each other, that they want to learn from each other. And, and it's okay if you are in a workplace where you're just, I don't think I can learn from people here because then the second question is then should you be here?

[00:15:27] How can you change that? You can learn from other people here.

[00:15:31] Yvonne Heimann: Mhmm.

[00:15:32] Julie Pham: It can't, how are other people supposed to spend energy trying to convince you that they are worth learning from?

[00:15:38] Yvonne Heimann: Now my question now also is you talked about the, the ones that are so fixated on the goals versus the ones that are curious and just wanna learn.

[00:15:50] Now what do you think? How can you combine those? Because I'm like, being goal oriented is often what drives that, it's, it's how we [00:16:00] measure things. It's, it's how we get data.

[00:16:02] Julie Pham: Mhmm.

[00:16:03] Yvonne Heimann: So how do you think you can combine that curiosity and that goal focus with each other? Or are we completely off and we shouldn't focus on goals?

[00:16:13] Julie Pham: I just think the goal can, if we have the goal of, hey, we want to for example, I'm thinking of one particular project where it was, they wanted to highlight art in a community.

[00:16:28] And in the beginning, they thought, oh, it's gonna have to look like exactly like this. But then it's just, oh, the way we do it changed. But we still got that sentiment, right? And so it's kind of just, hey. Are we generally in the right direction?

[00:16:44] And maybe that how changed, but we still make people feel an appreciation for art, and that's really what our original goal was. And so it's kind of not getting so fixated on how it has to look and getting and [00:17:00] thinking more about what is the impact that you, what was that greater impact that you wanna have? Maybe success. I mean, you know, when I worked at the newspaper, one of my hard lessons, my brother and I actually bought half the newspaper from our parents.

[00:17:15] But there were 2 editions to the newspaper. There was the weekday edition and the weekend edition, so we bought the weekday edition. And after 2 years, we did all of these things. We quadrupled the distribution area. We tripled circulation.

[00:17:27] We were able to increase profit margins. But the weekend edition, my parents edition, was suffering. So we had to shut down our edition. Just sometimes you have to cut a film to save the body. Does that mean that we weren't successful?

[00:17:40] No. I learned a lot. I learned so much in those 2 years. Right? And in the end, we made the decision.

[00:17:48] Let's save. Let's save the, the big the bigger addition even if that means closing down our own. So I think it's really about readjusting, being open to what we think that success is, what that [00:18:00] goal is going to be. It's not, and, and keeping that general the are we still serving our newspaper readers? Yes.

[00:18:07] We are. Is it how we thought we would? No. It changed.

[00:18:13] Yvonne Heimann: So it's that, rather than just being fixated on what we think, how we're gonna reach the goal, having that agility to, to adjust and just be, be open minded and curious to external things that are popping up or just in general of, hey, this is more fun or, hey, this is where things are going and just, just being agile with it.

[00:18:41] Julie Pham: Yeah. I mean, because, you know, one of the things that when my team when we start to do something, when we experiment with something new, and it's just, okay. There's gonna be risk here. And so we go in and it's just like, alright.

[00:18:51] Let's just keep in mind, yes, there's what we achieved, and there's also what are we gonna learn from this. No matter what, what will we learn from this [00:19:00] experiment, from this investment, even if we don't get what we thought? I can tell you I thought that when we created our first digital course, that would make gads of money because I was listening to all these content creators like, yes, I'm now making 7 figures in my first 6 months. So not the case.

[00:19:16] So not the case, right? Which is like, alright. But we learned a lot as we did that. And, and, you know, we actually followed the formula.

[00:19:25] We did all the things we were supposed to do, and then there's this other thing called luck, right? So and we can't control. It's like, alright. Well, you know, we, we worked hard.

[00:19:37] We felt really proud of our product. Does that mean that we were absolute failures because we didn't get, we didn't get the levels of achievement that all of these test the big testimonials? It's like, no.

[00:19:51] Yvonne Heimann: And it's, it's, it's funny you brought that specific example up because we are literally working on a group coaching program right now where it's like, [00:20:00] yeah, it's like, courses are the thing to do it. 1 on 1 are the thing to do it or whatever it is.

[00:20:06] And I'm like, it comes back down again to you actually enjoying what you are doing. And, and having the platform and having the right voice where it comes back down to our insights and not everything else. Can you make a good amount of money with courses? Yeah. Mhmm.

[00:20:25] Can you make a good amount of 1 with 1 on ones? Yeah. Or VIP days or whatever. But it's like, what's your core values? Because you're gonna show up like that too.

[00:20:35] And what are the resources you already have?

[00:20:38] Julie Pham: Mhmm.

[00:20:39] Yvonne Heimann: But that's, that's for a whole another episode.

[00:20:43] Julie Pham: Mhmm.

[00:20:44] Yvonne Heimann: So how do you work nowadays with clients?

[00:20:49] How are you working 1 on 1? Do you still have your courses out there? How do you work with your clients now?

[00:20:57] Julie Pham: The bulk of our work is learning [00:21:00] experiences, live learning experiences, whether that's in person or that's virtual. So even though we have our, we have a digital course that's based on my book called 7 forms of respect, the bulk of our revenue is actually from live sessions.

[00:21:14] And so they're all group. We don't do anything that's 1 on 1 whenever someone just do you do 1 on 1 coaching? I'm like, no. But I can refer you to people. And that's because we just try to create spaces for people to learn from one another.

[00:21:26] I'm actually doing very, very little lecturing. It's very interactive. We give people a series of prompts that increase the level of challenge and vulnerability, and we just create a space for them to learn from one another, which means people can go through the same module over and over again with different colleagues and learn something new.

[00:21:49] Yvonne Heimann: That's a different experience. Mhmm.

[00:21:52] Julie Pham: Mhmm. So that's how we, that's how we work with our, our clients. And then and also, we have, we have work [00:22:00] around goal setting, around organizational culture, belonging, inclusion, and communication skills. And all of that, underpinned by all of that, is this practice and curiosity. We keep bringing that up again and again.

[00:22:11] It's just we gotta be curious about ourselves, curious about other people, and let them be curious about us. And then also to listen, to understand, ask questions to what we don't understand and to tell stories. I mean, Yvi, there are the self awareness, one of my favorite stats, most people think that they're self aware yet only 10 to 15 percent of them actually are. Have you heard that one? And

[00:22:35] Yvonne Heimann: That's a stab right there.

[00:22:37] Like, I can, I can see it because I personally have been over the last year on a journey of being more self aware of, of paying attention, how I have communications, the relationships I'm building, but also me, myself, and my own talk. So I'm surprised by the number, but I'm not surprised if that makes [00:23:00] any sense.

[00:23:00] Julie Pham: Mhmm. Well, and I also think that anyone who tells you that they're absolutely self aware, that they're the ones who probably because, I mean, I know I have tons of blind spots. And the thing about do.

[00:23:10] The, the thing about practicing curiosity is we actually do it in community. And so I will actually become more self aware from other people, and that's the only so I always get frustrated with people just, oh, who say, like, they just need to be more self aware. I'm like, how do you think they get that by themselves? They don't miraculously get that on their own. Another stat I love is that 70 percent of people actually face barriers asking questions at work, And that could be slowing they that could be, I don't wanna waste time.

[00:23:40] That could be, I'm, I'm afraid of asking questions and revealing I don't know. That could be I mean, actually, this is, I find this the case when we work with consultants, as in when we are working, their consultant groups. It's amazing how they, they [00:24:00] feel that they need to provide answers and that their questions are very kind of very pointed to, to show how they actually can deliver an answer.

[00:24:13] Yvonne Heimann: And that when, when you said that my brain went into multiple different directions of the experts, because we are supposed to be the experts. We're not supposed to have questions. Right?

[00:24:24] I'm like, I can't know everything.

[00:24:26] Julie Pham: Mhmm.

[00:24:27] Yvonne Heimann: So makes complete sense to me. And then you brought up in the work environment, and I have experienced that with my own team. My core team is in the Philippines.

[00:24:38] Julie Pham: Mhmm.

[00:24:38] Yvonne Heimann: I love my, my 3 piece core team, love them to pieces, but there is such a, a location based difference where over the last few months, I'll, we literally have a weekly meeting scheduled now so that I can make them more comfortable in [00:25:00] asking questions.

[00:25:01] Julie Pham: Mhmm.

[00:25:02] Yvonne Heimann: Where it's like, we are supposed to be here to just do the work. I'm like, yeah, but you can't know everything.

[00:25:06] Get involved. Go have fun. And it's, it's been fun seeing that change in them being comfortable to ask, in being comfortable to say no, being comfortable to just blossom in their work if that's yeah.

[00:25:26] Julie Pham: Yes. And as the boss, we have to model that.

[00:25:28] We have to model I don't know. What do you think? I don't know the answer. Or what does that acronym mean? I've never heard that word before.

[00:25:36] And there are times where I'm just I get really embarrassed. I'm like, I should know that word, but, oh, I'm just gonna ask anyway. And, and then we have. We have ways that. We have to model that.

[00:25:45] Yvonne Heimann: And it's like, we have days where my audience knows on the podcast it's not being edited, and I have tongue twisters.

[00:25:52] It just happens.

[00:25:53] Julie Pham: Mhmm.

[00:25:54] Yvonne Heimann: And the same way I have calls with the team where I'm like, wait. What? How?

[00:25:59] What? [00:26:00] Where I literally I just had a busy day or just having a brain fog going on or it's just like, oh, that's what you are talking about. Got it. It's like

[00:26:08] Julie Pham: Well and I also think that when we talk about people who are problem solvers, that's very prized in our society. Right?

[00:26:14] I'm a problem solver. I'm very solutions oriented. And what we don't and that's great. Yet, the thing is, I also like to sometimes in that, that solution orientation, it's like it's just, oh, is it, it is that it? No.

[00:26:28] Is that it? No. No. And we don't pause and slow down to say, what is this problem teaching me? What is this problem teaching me?

[00:26:39] And asking that question can feel like it's slowing down, and yet, actually, it could help us learn something much bigger. Because how often do we get into the, okay, now we have to go start doing it this way, and then it's just wait. No. Let's take a step back. I think that there's a bigger philosophical question we need to ask before we can get to the [00:27:00] how, get to the possible solutions.

[00:27:04] Yvonne Heimann: Yes. Yes. Yes. To all of the above. It's, it's interesting because I've I experienced that a lot with my clients when it comes to process mapping and things when I often work with, with the ones that are not technology challenged, that are problem aware and wanna find the solution.

[00:27:22] Julie Pham: Mhmm.

[00:27:22] Yvonne Heimann: Where literally have to say, I'm like, okay. I, I appreciate you bringing all the ideas of how we can solve this even though you hired me for that.

[00:27:31] Julie Pham: Mhmm.

[00:27:32] Yvonne Heimann: We need to step back. What's the actual oval angle? What are you trying to accomplish? And then let's go nitty gritty again to see if we have the right solution. But first, I'm like, let's, let's start up here. I love that.

[00:27:47] Julie Pham: Well, even, it's even with your clients, it's just, are you willing to learn from the consultant that you hired? Right?

[00:27:53] Yvonne Heimann: I am I am lucky enough. I am lucky enough that I have not had a client in a long [00:28:00] time that hired me as the expert and then tell me what to do. I am lucky on that.

[00:28:05] We had those. We had those. I had clients in the past, fortunately, not in a long time, that hired me to just get the approval stamp of me telling them that they are doing it right. Unfortunately, they didn't, but that's a whole another story here. Listening comes with curiosity too.

[00:28:26] And now for everybody really being curious, you have some goodies for the audience. You have a quiz for them. You have a book. Tell them a little bit about it. And, guys, as always, you're gonna find the links in the description.

[00:28:39] Julie Pham: Yeah. So I have this book called 7 Forms of Respect. It's about how respect is dynamic, relative, subjective, and contradictory. And, and so you can go to formsofrespect.com, and you can get a free mini book. There's also a free 2 week crash course and a free quiz.

[00:28:57] So you can go there and learn more about it. You can also get the [00:29:00] book on Amazon or on Barnes and Noble, anything like that. And then, also, you can find me at curiositybased.com. That's my the main website. I am most active on LinkedIn, so I'd love for you to connect with me.

[00:29:13] Yvonne Heimann: Love it. And, guys, as always, you know, the links are all in description. You're gonna find all of that. So make sure you click on that LinkedIn link. Pop into Doctor Julie's inbox.

[00:29:24] Tell her you watched the episode and connect with her. Thanks so much for coming onto the podcast today. As always, it's always really curious to see where episodes guide us. Thanks so much for joining me today.

[00:29:39] Julie Pham: Thank you so much, Yvi.