Yvonne Heimann [00:00:01]:
Have you ever stopped to consider whose perspective is missing when we talk about accessibility and inclusion? Today, we're tackling the gap between legal checklists like ADA compliance and the real, daily experiences of people living with disabilities. The challenges are everywhere: environments are often designed without input from those who use wheelchairs, stories and needs beyond the dominant narrative get overlooked, and both businesses and individuals are unsure how to truly connect or make a difference.
Yvonne Heimann [00:00:42]:
And with that, let me introduce to you Jenna Udenberg. Yes, I pronounced that German. I was told I sound cute when I tried to pronounce that in German, so I get to stick with it. Thanks for that. By the way, Jenna, you are a lifelong resident from the North Shore of Minnesota, and you are also a fan. Former music educator of 19 years. She has used a manual wheelchair since you were 8 due to juvenile idiopathic arthritis. And Jenna is a 2017 Blandon foundation community leader, a 2020 Bush fellow, and a 2025 Shannon Leadership Institute Fellow, writing for the Lake County Press in her column, local view from 4 foot 2 inspires vulnerability and the sharing of lived experience from a Seated Perspective.
And when I read that bio and the title of your column, I was like, okay, that woman can have a good laugh. I need to bring you on because it's not easy. Let's. Let's be honest. It's not easy. We are not built for people that are not white, preferably male, know how to use their legs and all the other things. Right. Our world right now is built for easy and the moment.
We are not fitting in the box. We are not easy. So coming across you, reading your bio, getting to hang out with you in the green room, and already having shared quite a few laughs, I was like, yeah, I cannot not have you on the podcast. And you take it with a laugh. Just even looking at the title of your column, have you always been able to take it with a laugh? Was that always kind of like the premise, or was that something you grew into?
Jenna Udenberg [00:02:54]:
That's a great question. I would say as far back as I can remember, I always remember laughing with my physical tortures. I mean, physical therapists and, you know, like, if you don't laugh, you cry. And so, yes, I've done plenty of both. And I've always had people like, Jenny, I just need to write a book. You know, like, so many lived experiences, you have all these things. And I'm like, whatever. You're just blowing smoke. And so now, as a published author and a columnist and now being a podcast guest and all this stuff, I'm like, well, now I found my voice and now I'm not being quiet. So here we go.
Yvonne Heimann [00:03:31]:
And that's. That's part actually where we. Where I also have questions on. Because you're doing. You are doing so much, and it's your type. The title of your book is Within My Spokes, A Tapestry of Pain, Growth, and Freedom. I love that combination of all the things. Right.
As you said. Yes, There is tears, yes, there is laughs, yes, there is freedom. But yes, there's also pain. Yes, there is growth. It's. It's a collection of all the things and you are even also combining that with your business called above and beyond with you. It feels like from what I know from you so far, it is, it is an all encompassing passion because with your fellowships, with your memoirs, with your business heck, it's like I look at this, it's like you're going fishing, you are playing board games, you are coaching the Robo Dreeps a LEGO robotics team. It's like do you sleep?
Jenna Udenberg [00:04:44]:
Not well. I need more.
Yvonne Heimann [00:04:50]:
Don't we all, don't we all to. To dive a little bit into the practical thing. So we already know manual wheelchair. Since 8 years old you had quite a lot of struggles. You still the world from a different perspective as somebody like me, let's be honest, I'm not quite that short. I do see it from a little bit higher up and I'm so happy I can make this joke and you can laugh with me. Your website talks about really these ADA compliancy. So how do you help people like me better understand? I'm like yes, I'm a sucker for, for I know perception and our perception is based on all the things we are and we do.
How do you help people like me understand your life and your perception better but also support others in getting more into getting how they need information being supported in this. How do you work with people on both sides of this coin to make our world a better place?
Jenna Udenberg [00:06:12]:
Yeah. Wow. So many different ways to go. I would say, you know, I'm very glad to have my music education background and you know when that part of my journey ended up, which is all in my book so you can read more about that. But it was an identity crisis and so then I was given the label of accessibility educator. And so that was a huge aha moment for me of like all the things that I've learned doesn't need to stop, doesn't need to be applicable to this other side of my life. And so I feel like between me and my whole board at above and beyond with u, all of us have some connection to the education world. Whether it's being an adaptive PE teacher, whether it's being an OT in the school setting, whether it's being a former administrator or a former adaptive camp program.
Can't think of the right word. Not manager, but you know what I'm saying. And so we just come at this in a Very holistic approach, a very complimentary approach. And so a lot of times, all I'm doing in this work to start the conversation is I flip the script on its head. So, for instance, like, you know, you just read like, yeah, my. It's local view from 4 foot 2. So usually my joke is I literally measured where my eyeballs were because I didn't want to just pick something that was, you know, it rhymed view. And two, I wanted to, like, measure.
So, yes, when I'm seated, my eyeballs are at 4 foot 2, but when I'm standing, I'm actually 57 to 58 tall.
Jenna Udenberg [00:07:52]:
So when I have those days where I can stand or have those, I'm in that environment where I can do those things. All these people that I'm typically looking up to are now looking up to me. And it's a very different perspective and a very different aha for them and for me. But I would also say in the work that we do, you know, we love to come alongside, which is the whole why width is the biggest part of our logo. And, you know, it's not about being ADA compliant. It's not about being a checklist, right? Just like you're not a checklist of, oh, you're German, oh, you're American, oh, you're living in this state now, but you came from this state, right? Like, there's way more to you as a human, just like, there's way more to me than just all the different diagnoses and symptoms that I'm experiencing at any moment. Oh, and you happen to be a chick in a chair, right? Like, there's way more to life than that. And so, you know, when we're working in, especially, like the housing industry or the lodging industry or any of the travel industry, it's like, well, we just don't know.
And all of us, the human race as a whole, no matter what country you find yourself in, we don't know what we don't know. And until people are vulnerable enough and strong enough and courageous enough to share their story, we can't know it all. We can't just pop on different skin colors and different, you know, cultural backgrounds and different family makeups and all the things, right? We can never in our whole lifetime experience all the things that make each human, each human. And so just by saying those things, you know, it really helps people flip that. And, like, earlier today, I was in a meeting about housing. And, you know, we live in rural Minnesota, so again, our population is more of the baby boomers. So some young families, but kind of traditional demographics of America, right? Especially rural. And it was like every time they talked about disability, it was like, oh yeah, the older population, the aging in place population, the all the things.
I'm like, I get it.
Yvonne Heimann [00:09:59]:
Because that's kind of what, that's where they're connecting. So yeah, it's their perception, but it's like, it's actually, that's one part, right?
Jenna Udenberg [00:10:10]:
And then it's like, well, what about this young family down the street who has a fourth grader in a wheelchair? What about this newborn that just yada yada, yada, right? But then on the flip side, when I do like playground work and park work, it's all like, oh, well, the little fourth grader in a wheelchair over here. Oh, this newborn child, da, da, da, da, da. And then I go, so what if grandma grandpa have grandchild at the park? What if I as a disabled auntie that both biological and adopted chosen nieces and nephews go to the park and one of them falls at the top of the slide? Well, is there a ramp? Can I physically get to the child in which I'm responsible for? Can I go swing with my niece and nephew? And they're all like, oh, right. So you, you.
Yvonne Heimann [00:11:02]:
Because it's how, how you look at the situation, right? You are starting with the playground of you are thinking about the kids and making it accessible for the kids and to play. But if you are not, we, as you said, we don't know what we don't know. I'm like, I'm sitting here, everybody that's watching the videos and sees my faces because I'm like, oh, yeah, there's the perception. I know exactly the moment you said it, I knew exactly where the perception came from. And it was click. But I'm like, I would not have thought about the caretaker at the, at the playground. I would not have. Because I'm like.
And I'm one that actually sees a lot of the little things and how they connect. And I'm like, yeah, didn't even, didn't even think about it. It's like, we don't know what we don't know. And.
Your approach to, to all of this, to me is, is really refreshing. And looking at all of these significant milestones you have achieved, I would love to hear your experiences that have also influenced the way you lead. Like how you show up, your leader style, your vision. Are there a couple of experiences that you can share that have made you the leader you are today?
Jenna Udenberg [00:12:28]:
I would say probably the first one is definitely my middle school band director. She was probably the first person that I can remember that just in small, subtle ways, in the language she used and the way she made me feel in the way she fought for me. And it wasn't like, come pin a rose on my nose. Like, I stood up for you and I advocated for you. It was just like, this is just the right thing to do. And, like, I see you as a phil human. So whether it's I'm helping you oil your trumpet or learn how to clean it, or I'm helping you tighten your leg brace because you're post surgical, and this is, you can't do this, but this is something you need for your overall health. Like, she just did that.
And like, that was. You know, I graduated high school in 1998, so, you know, eight years after the Americans with Disabilities act was passed. So, you know, some of the stuff we were doing or had to do together today would not be legal. Like, you know, riding in her car to different field trips as a band student, doing all the different things in those realm. But, like, she wasn't told to do it. She chose to do it. You know what I mean? And so that was just really foundational. And, like, that's what inspired me to become a band director and to become a music teacher, because it was like, I've always had that wanting to give back.
I was growing up in a home where it was like, you find a space, or you. When you come into a space, you leave it better than how you found it. And I would say in the last three, four years, especially since becoming a 2020 Bush Fellow and going through that whole process, my mantra now is like, it's not just about spaces that you want to leave better. It's about humans and fellow neighbors and just like, you know, and I want the people to do the same for me if they see me, that I'm in, you know, in this low spot, well, then by the time our conversation's over, I hope I've laughed a little, like you and I have said already. Right. I hope that, you know, even if it is something that is traumatic or is sad, even if I'm still crying at the time of the end of our conversation, there's some human to human connection that's happened. So you feel validated or you feel supported or you feel something that's tangible and emotional and spiritual in all the aspects of what makes us human and beautiful.
Yvonne Heimann [00:14:45]:
Which leads me to a little bit more practical question. Now, you offer tailored Training sessions on accessibility and DEIA practices. What are some common misconceptions organizations have about accessibility? What do you see when, when companies do make the effort? Do you see a common misconception that kind of repeats itself? Is there something big where my listeners can start paying attention to, where I can start paying attention to?
Jenna Udenberg [00:15:24]:
How much time do we have? No, just kidding. I would say
Yvonne Heimann [00:15:28]:
Let's go with the. Biggest, but they're the ones that show up the most. I, yes, humans, right? I'm like, human nature is ignorance, right? Human nature is. We feel safe in what we know. Saying, I don't know, back in the back, in the back in the days killed us. So I do understand the human nature behind it. And I. For everybody out there listening, I promise you, stepping out of that comfort zone and just stepping, staying in what you know is not going to kill you. We are, we are not jumping off the Eiffel Tower.
You are not learning how to fly. It's not that much unknown, but it's like starting to pay attention to things. I have learned a lot in the past when I was working with speech, with a speech impaired client, with the, the effort they have to do to just understand me because I don't speak sign language and the additional cost. So I'm curious. The, the misconceptions you run into the top two, maybe three. As I'm looking on the time, it's like, yeah, we do have a little bit of time limit.
Jenna Udenberg [00:16:46]:
Right? Perfect. I would say everybody assumes that because the ADA was passed in 1990, that everything is accessible or that to be. Or that there's funding somewhere to make that accessible. And because it, well, it just should be. And your original question was about, like businesses and listeners and that kind of stuff too. And everybody assumes that the ADA code is what they have to do and only what they can do. And we are not a checklist. We.
It is not only what you can do. The ADA code is the floor, not the ceiling. So by creating spaces where disabled culture and disability community can be a part of your planning process, A plan, a part of your building process, but not after you've already built the building, not after you've already poured the sidewalk, not after you've already installed the door or hired an architect, from the very beginning of brainstorming to the very last time that key turns in the door, like every step, the disability community needs to be a part of it. Because in our culture we have the saying nothing for us, without us. And so much am I growing up with. Oh, well, we built this, but Jenna never came. Well, we made this event accessible, but Jenna didn't come. Well, our family moved this to this event so Jenna could come, but she didn't.
Jenna Udenberg [00:18:19]:
And the reality is, like, it shouldn't be about Jenna. This should be. We want our community and anyone who can or wants to come to said event, come to our building, rent this hotel room, or rent this apartment from us. We can live and thrive and succeed. And it's about building the relationship. I'm not a checklist. You're not a checklist. So you have to build a relationship, and both sides of it need to be willing to be vulnerable and courageous at the same time.
Just be like, oh, shoot, I just said chicken a chair, and people don't like that. Well, that's Jenna's words for Jenna. But also, disability is not a bad word. So the more that people play around with language and they kind of dance around things, it's like, no, just ask me. Hey, Jenna, can I ask, you know, are there certain labels or words that you would prefer or how do you want to be, you know, acknowledged? And in some situations, you're not going to do that. I'm going to be like, hi, I'm Jenna. Right. But I'm also going to be like, you know what? I don't like handicap, because I'm not a golf term.
So I park in a cliff.
Yvonne Heimann [00:19:24]:
I thought of it that way. And I'm sitting. Oh, yeah, you do have. And that's. It's. Language is so personal, where some words trigger somebody and some words don't trigger the other person. It's. It's so personal.
So I always appreciate the people literally just telling me, right. English is also my second language, where it's like, you know, don't really care about that one. Can you just use that? I'm like, cool, awesome. Not a problem. Got it right. And it. It helps a lot. And I had to learn to take the initiative and ask because it's like, I don't want to step on people's toe.
I don't want to be the person that looks dumb, that uses the wrong words or whatever. I don't. I don't want to make a big fuss about it. I just want to treat you like a human. So I don't want to ask. And I'm like, no, we are not doing this. Yvi is Yvi. We're going to ask the question.
So I love that. That balancing of, hey, just ask me, or also just telling me, hey, you know what? Nah, don't care. About that one, let's use that one.
Jenna Udenberg [00:20:45]:
And I would also preface that though, too. Like, you know, I've been in a wheelchair for 38 years now, so if it's somebody new to diagnosis or new to injury or whatever you got, you just got to have those curious questions and have some in your back pocket. And then some people don't identify as disabled, even if they're in a wheelchair full time, even if they're in a walker full time. Like, you just don't want to offend somebody. Just like you're not going to assume that somebody is an African American, right? Like, there's just things that we all have to be curious about and also just say, hey, it could be also none of my business. So I just want to make sure that I'm using things that you would like me to use. And if you just want me to call you Yvi, then there we go, right? Like you, you just let me know because this is who I am and this is how I want to show respect. But let me know if there's another better way that I can show respect and mutual agreement.
Yvonne Heimann [00:21:34]:
I love that question. In your memoir, Within My Spokes, the Tapestry of Pain, Growth and Freedom. And yes, guys, the link is going to be in the description you share your lived experiences. You already mentioned a little bit that people were kind of like teasing you. You should write one. Now I'm curious. Did you write it because people were poking you? You really should write one. Or was there something else behind it that gets you to the point to actually finally write it? And what do you hope your readers take away from it?
Jenna Udenberg [00:22:11]:
I would say it was earlier in my life that people were poking me. And I didn't write this until 2023 or it was published in 2023. So I wrote it for about a year. I was still very much stay at home because I am immunocompromised. So it was like, hey, I have time. I was in the middle of my Bush fellowship and so I was like, hey, can I use some of this fellowship money to learn how to write a book, learn about the publishing world and self publishing world. And so there was a lot that I had to learn because again, like we said this whole time, we don't know what we don't know. And wow, that industry is a whole different ball game.
Oh yeah, There's a lot going on, a lot of parts to it. But the, the part that sold me in going the route that I did with publishing my book was the person through the self publishing school that I went through was like, you can either choose to try to have 4,000 coffees to tell your story 4,000 separate times, or you can sit down and write your book, and then that becomes your business card. So that way, by the time you actually get to have that coffee with someone, by the time you're in that board meeting to make this pitch of, this is why accessibility matters, and this is how we can come alongside you, they already have some of that knowledge. And on the flip side of that, I was like, yeah, this is awesome. But on the flip side, I'm like, people will come up to me now, locally or regionally or sometimes completely off the street, and I have no idea who they are, because I'm like, in a metropolis. And I'm just like, what? And they're like, hey, you wrote that book. That part of the story was so funny. And I'm like, I forgot that I shared that part of my story.
Like, what are you talking about? How do you know that?
Yvonne Heimann [00:23:59]:
I feel so seen right now. I'm like, yeah, it's written, it's done. What did I actually put in there? What did I talk about? Literally happens after every single podcast episode where I'm like, okay, this was a great, great conversation, but what specifically did we talk about?
Jenna Udenberg [00:24:10]:
Right. Yep. And so, you know, and that's why I thought it was a tapestry, because every single one of our lives are interconnected. So even now, today, after this moment, you and I are connected. And so it's like, so is this a strong thread? Is this a beautiful thread? Is it a sparkly thread? Is it a green thread? Is it, you know, flip it over, and it's a really messed up, not filled, you know, I hope not like a tapestry, right? Yep. But. But what's cool about it is there's a couple of good friends. I mentioned my name and, like, people on the street like, hey, Megan, I read your book.
And she's like, the first couple times it happened, you know, she's like, what are you talking about? And it's like, oh, Jenna's book. Jenna's book that I happen to be a part of. Right? And it's like, right. Because all of our lives are interconnected, and all of us impact each other, whether we want to realize that, whether we're excited that other people impact us. But no matter what, it's true.
Yvonne Heimann [00:25:03]:
So for my audience that is ready to take action and wanting to step out of their perception of the world and broadening that view some more, learn what they don't Know, what would you recommend to them? Where. Where do we start? Because I'm like that. That whole section. Everything, right? Accessibility, all the things. There's so much to it. If that is hearing disabled, if that is speaking disabled, if that is walking, talking, running, whatever it is, it is. It is such a broad subject, which I gotta admit, can feel really overwhelming. Starting in that.
Do you have a tip and advice on how can. How can I get started today to stop just being in my box and seeing the world just through my eyes?
Jenna Udenberg [00:26:06]:
Well, first of all, I would say follow above and beyond with u on whatever social media you're on. We're on Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram. Check out our website. I try to post different books, different movies, those kinds of things that I watch or read. I would say reach out to your public library, because a lot of those librarians know those books, know those documentaries. If you don't know who Judith Heumann is, go get her book. And she has anything from the adult version, which is longer and All About ADA and 504 and IDEA. But also there's the, you know, if you're more of like, oh, I'll watch a documentary.
Well, check out the disability documentaries like Crip Camp on Netflix and other spaces. There's so much to learn, and there's so much that we need to put into our educational system, too. Like, we're all trying to figure out, like, how do you get disability education and disability policy into American education? Like, I, as a proud disabled woman, only until my bush Fellowship in 2020, I didn't know who Judy Heumann was. I knew who Ed Roberts was. You know, and it's not about the names. It's about the stories. It's about the legacy. It's about that they're the trailblazers.
They're the reason that I have the rights that I have currently, anyways. And so, you know, it's like. And then how do we learn from that history so we don't repeat it? And so I would just say, you know, just reaching out. And in most locations, especially bigger cities, they have an adaptive outdoor sports recreation space. Be willing and vulnerable to just go volunteer or go see what a wheelchair basketball tournament is all about, or, you know, go see.
Yvonne Heimann [00:27:52]:
Wheelchair basketball. One of my besties boyfriend is in a wheelchair basketball tournament, and I've seen the video of it. They are going to town. I'm like, holy moly. I'm happy you are strapped into that thing.
Jenna Udenberg [00:28:12]:
Oh, but I've seen a couple that are strapped in and they get face burn because the chair is on top of them and their head is what's there. So I will never be strapped in when I do sports, but that's me. Have you heard of murder ball or wheelchair rugby? Oh, if you think wheelchair basketball is hardcore, you need to find some rugby.
Yvonne Heimann [00:28:31]:
Rugby in general. From what I know, the crazy we run around rugby, I'm like, that's already now imagining that in a wheel. Holy.
Jenna Udenberg [00:28:44]:
And then if you do it on hot asphalt. Yeah. There's a lot that you can start youtubing or Netflixing or a whole new world.
Yvonne Heimann [00:28:58]:
Oh, my God. Yeah, I'm gonna have to. I'm gonna have to dig a little bit deeper now. Now you. Now you started me on a rabbit hole for this weekend. Oh, my God.
Jenna Udenberg [00:29:06]:
And then when the Paralympics and Olympics happen, that's another great way to enter into disability community and culture. Even just a little toe dip of understanding some of our world.
Yvonne Heimann [00:29:18]:
And it's. I'm. I'm all about perception. That's. That's my thing, right? Because I'm always joking about. I'm like, yeah, think of the color red. Chances are the level and gradient of the red you think about is different than what I think about. And I said the exact same thing.
Right? So being able to put ourselves in a situation where we're looking at something from a different perspective is just priceless. And we learn so much more. It. It broadens our horizons so much more. It makes us so much more compassionate. So with that, I am so thankful you joined me today. And the laughs we got to share.
For everybody listening and watching, wherever, however you're gonna find all the links down below, Jenna's social links are going to be shared. The book is going to be shared. We have it all there, easily accessible for you. Thank you, Jenna. Thank you so much for having those conversations, for doing the work, and for coming onto the podcast. Best. Thank you.
Jenna Udenberg [00:30:32]:
Thank you.
Yvonne Heimann [00:30:33]:
Bye, everybody.